So I had the first chapter of my Nano novel critiqued last night. That's probably one of the scariest things I've ever done. Like, ever. I want to run away so bad! But Kathy made me stay and told me, well, we are here now, let's do this! (Oh crap, I used a !! Make that two.)
But it was fascinating to hear how complete and total strangers saw my character and my story. I tried not to argue with them, because I know that's a big no-no, so I nodded a lot and asked for clarification here and there, and agreed with them on many points actually. But here, on my very own post about it, I can argue all I want, right? And ask all the most obnoxious questions that I stifled yesterday, right?
And besides, I really do want to know what you all think about some of these points. So please, let me know.
** So, what exactly is wrong with the dreaded !!!!!. I guess it's kind of like the adverb of punctuation, yes? It tells, it doesn't show. But sometimes, oh man, sometimes you just really need it. Don't you?
** Speaking of telling and showing, don't do both. No telling. No telling AND showing. Just showing. Only showing, always showing. Do we all agree with this one?
** What is your definition of conflict? And do you need conflict all the time to keep you interested? And does that conflict need to be very obvious or can it be subtle?
** If a person was sitting in front of you, and they turn their head to the side but was looking down, would you see the color of their eyes? Or not quite?
** In thinking about thinking, don't you ever, when you are thinking, ask yourself questions? I didn't know that in a first person narrative, you shouldn't have the character be thinking questions. That one was new to me. I'm not sure I agree with it. What do you think?
** What's the difference between these things ... and these things -- and are there different circumstance in which you use them? And if I want the reader to read things with lots of pauses, should I not be using ... and is it bad if I use more than three dots? What if I want a long pause? ............
** Is it a love triangle if two guys like the girl, but the girl only likes one of the guys? (We didn't discuss this during the meeting last night, but I'm dying to know.)
** Perky. It's bad, right? I do not want a perky character. I guess I don't even want a happy character. Even if she starts out happy and THEN the conflict comes and she gets crazy. But I need her to start out crazy instead? Yes? Or what? I'm so confused on this one. (Here, I would like to use another !!!! so you can feel my sense of frustration, but I'm scared now.) Yeah, it didn't even cross my mind that she shouldn't be happy as the book opens. So confused. But one of the guys last night called her a sweetheart. I liked that. It made me smile.
** Passive voice. I totally agree. It's bad. My chapter is full of it and that's after I thought I got rid of it. Dang. I'm such a bad bad writer. Bad, so bad.
** Flashbacks, in the first chapter. Your feelings on this? I had a feeling they would hate this. I was right.
** If my first scene takes place at church, would you assume that it's going to be a Christian novel? Yeah, me neither.
Well, though I could go on, because yes, there's more, I'll stop for now because I've a feeling you are already overwhelmed. Because I do expect you, the expert readers, to know the answers. Please, what do you think on any or all of the above points?
And speaking of being an expert, I thought I know some things, but seriously, I truly know nothing.
Lest you think I'm complaining here, I'm not. It was fun. It was eye opening. It was hard. It was helpful. It was discouraging, just like I knew it would be. But here's hoping that soon, I won't care, and will keep trying. Know what I mean?
(P.S. I was a terrible critiquer in return, because, you guessed it, I pretty much like everything I read. I know you are so surprised!)
I love this post. I felt the same way... it's discouraging to have people bring up things they disliked that I never even thought about.
ReplyDeleteI know you already heard my thoughts last night (and I'm the worst critiquer) but here are some more. I think it's totally fine to have a happy, positive character! I could see what the one guy was saying about adding more to explain why she's so excited for her summer. But I wouldn't try to make her critical or jaded or anything.
And that LDS fiction question felt really random to me, too. I think it was because that lady missed your explanation at the beginning. She maybe would have been less aggressive? blunt? if she'd realized we'd never been critiqued before. Not that she was being mean exactly. Just, it felt a little strong to me.
Anyway, I liked your first chapter! I thought it was interesting and I still don't think you can see someone's eye color just because you can see the side of their face. Seriously. Pictures will prove me right. :)
Keep going, Suey!
Kathy: Thanks again for your thoughts and encouraging words! :)
DeleteSo, your first chapter takes place in a church and someone expected it to be a Christian novel? I would need a bit more info than that... Cop shows have random scenes in churches and I don't think they are Christian...
ReplyDeleteKailana: I think I'm going to take the whole church thing right on OUT! Sheesh.
DeleteThe bottom line is it's your novel. Take some critique to heart and ignore anything that you don't agree with. I used to get notes passed to me from my critique group that said ignore "name of critiquer" because he always thought he was right but rarely was.
ReplyDeleteThe ellipses should be . . . unless it's the end of a sentence then there is a period as well. There are mixed thoughts on using an em dash, but I think it's used when someone is interrupted. The ellipses is when someone pauses.
Flashbacks can be difficult to handle and sometimes confusing.
Use your book as a learning experience and study books on the subject and attend writers' conferences. Two books that helped me was The Breakout Novel Workbook by Don Maas (it helps you to study your book to make it better) and lecture notes by Margie Lawson (check her website). She's wonderful.
One of my characters is a Christian although the book isn't Christian as such. I got a bad review from someone who said she was offended and should have been forewarned. I thought that odd as I've read many books where a character is of a certain religion and it never bothered me as long as there's no preaching to the reader.
Good luck and keep going.
Ann
Ann: Thanks for all your awesome advice, as usual! And I've been wanting suggestions for good books on writing, so thanks for those too.
DeleteWeird about the offended reader. People are interesting. That's for sure.
1. The only way I can explain the overuse of ! is that then nothing is important. It's like when someone bolds the heck out of a document. What is supposed to be noticed? Everything? But, I don't know if I'm right on this about the ! because I use them a lot! I mean a lot! See!!!
ReplyDelete2. I guess that makes sense, but I don't understand why you can't do both.
3. I think there's all kinds of conflict. The most common conflict in YA is the love triangle. But, I love when there's other conflict. Like in Edenbrooke. No love triangle, but there was plenty of conflict. I can't explain what the difference is. But, I prefer the latter.
4. If it's Marty Feldman, yes, you could see his color of eyes. Everyone else, I don't think so.
5. It happens all the time in YA. Maybe the characters are second guessing themselves without using the ?. Maybe, they're just asking rhetorical questions?
6. An ellipsis, like Cozy in Texas, stated is only ever written like . . . unless it's at the end of the sentence. Then, there is no space between it and the word and there are four periods. You can use commas, parentheses, and em dashes to offset thoughts. But, in fiction, I've found that ellipses are used for pauses and then you show the length of pauses rather than using lots of periods and em dashes are used for interruptions, like Cozy in Texas said.
7. I don't think so. It's like Everneath. I've never thought of it was a love triangle even though both Jack and Cole like Nikki. But, because there is no question that Nikki likes and wants to be with Jack, it's not a love triangle. Cole is just an obstacle. I hope that makes sense.
8. Why can't your character be happy at the beginning and then have something bad happen to them? I don't get that.
9. Yep. Passive voice is bad. I hate it. I have a hard time with it in my technical writing. I think I'll have a hard time with it in creative writing too.
10. Everneath does it and I didn't think it was confusing. I love how Everneath is laid out. So, it's doable. Maybe, it's just not the norm.
11. Nope. The characters are just in church. It depends on all the other stuff going on in the novel if it's Christian lit or religious lit for that matter since not all church-going characters are Christian.
I meant Blackmoore not Edenbrooke.
DeleteJenni: Wow! Thanks for addressing all my issues! You are awesome! We'll talk more after/when/if you read my chapter!
DeleteI have no answers just a great big "go you!" for being brave enough to jump in and take your writing to the next level. I've been vacillating in rough draft land for years. You've inspired me to pull it out and do some serious work! Keep it up!
ReplyDeleteAmy: Yay that I've inspired you! Though, weird at that. I feel like I'm being quite the downer here!
DeleteI'm proud of you for being so brave! Having your writing critiqued is never easy (I love critiquing other people's work, but it's not easy -- although it is helpful -- to have mine scrutinized).
ReplyDeleteOn your question about perky heroines -- personally, I don't think EVERY YA heroine has to be angry, angsty and haunted by her past. She CAN be a generally happy, positive person. It's just that her story conflict has to take her to rock bottom in order to garner the reader's sympathy. Her positivity/perkiness can't make her go, "Oh, whatever, this too shall pass." Her troubles have to beat her up and make her doubt herself and everyone around her. Main characters are supposed to change from the beginning of the novel to the end, but that doesn't mean they have to have a complete personality transformation (a la Ebeneezer Scrooge). They can just have an attitude change or a perspective change or a change in one aspect of their personality, not the whole thing. Does that make sense?
Susan: Maybe I'll get used to it, the critiquing thing, if I keep going at this. And about the perky character, see, I was surprised that they didn't like that IN THE FIRST CHAPTER! Of course things happen and stuff changes and the whole story takes quite the turn. But in the first chapter she IS happy and ready to have this awesome summer adventure! And all is well, for that moment. Yeah, I was baffled. I guess I need more of a "first chapter conflict." So I'll ponder that.
DeleteYou should come to Storymakers this year. It's really, really helpful for writers. Plus, I'll be there, so we could hang out :)
DeleteI think you are brave. I tried to write a short story once as a challenge--It was hard.
ReplyDeleteKelley: I'm not very brave. If I go BACK, that'll be the brave thing!
DeleteWow! Great post!! The first time I had someone read my stuff and critique/edit, it was so hard. But, once I let the feedback in, I discovered that it was so very helpful!
ReplyDeleteThe one question that really stands out to me is the first person questioning. I think this might actually be okay in some cases. I think questioning ourselves is a natural thing. We have to make choices all the time and some of them have to do with personal conflict. I think if it is done appropriately, it can be okay!
Tif: Yeah, I think that's one of the things they said that I'm going to ignore.
Delete**I'm doing this in several comments because it's so long.**
ReplyDeleteAww, that's brave of you! I remember the first time I had my work critiqued -- be even just my friends. It was eye-opening, as you say. Here's my answers to your questions. All my opinions of course. :)
** So, what exactly is wrong with the dreaded !!!!!. I guess it's kind of like the adverb of punctuation, yes? It tells, it doesn't show. But sometimes, oh man, sometimes you just really need it. Don't you?
I think that depends on the type of book you're writing and what your editor/publisher will want. I'd also say use it sparingly, though. I usually only use an exclamation point when it's 100% needed. That, of course, is varies in opinion on what is needed. But gosh, don't let anybody tell you that you CAN'T EVER use them. Heck no. Of course you can.
** Speaking of telling and showing, don't do both. No telling. No telling AND showing. Just showing. Only showing, always showing. Do we all agree with this one?
No. I don't agree with black & white rules like that, no way. It's not a rule that you can't tell. I've read excellent novels that rely on telling vs. showing, and it works beautifully. Again, it depends on you and your story. I've found showing is usually best, but there's a reason they call storytelling storyTELLING. Some parts of story just can't be shown.
** What is your definition of conflict? And do you need conflict all the time to keep you interested? And does that conflict need to be very obvious or can it be subtle?
Conflict, to me, means tension. And yes, most of the time you need tension in your story. And no, it doesn't have to be obvious life and death tension/conflict. Basically, tension usually always boils down to what will the character LOSE? And do why should we care? I wrote a post about this: http://michelledargyle.com/2008/03/02/tension-on-every-page-and-all-that-crap/
** If a person was sitting in front of you, and they turn their head to the side but was looking down, would you see the color of their eyes? Or not quite?
Whhhaaaat??? I'd say just try this out and see for yourself.
** In thinking about thinking, don't you ever, when you are thinking, ask yourself questions? I didn't know that in a first person narrative, you shouldn't have the character be thinking questions. That one was new to me. I'm not sure I agree with it. What do you think?
Again, YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT. There's no rule about characters asking themselves questions in a first-person narrative. If you want your character to ask themselves questions (I mean, who doesn't do that?), then have them ask themselves questions. With this one, I'd say read some first-person narratives and see how other authors handle it. See if you like how they do it or not.
... CONTINUED
ReplyDelete** What's the difference between these things ... and these things -- and are there different circumstance in which you use them? And if I want the reader to read things with lots of pauses, should I not be using ... and is it bad if I use more than three dots? What if I want a long pause? ............
The difference can be found in the CMOS (Chicago Manual of Style), but that's pretty technical. Since those are actual grammatical punctuation, it's a rule that you probably shouldn't use more than three (four in a row means there's a period ending the sentence and then the ellipses, but depending on publishing house style guides, these may or may not be used). What you used (two hyphens -- ) is not actually anything you can use. You're probably meaning to use an actual em dash, which is different from an en dash. An em dash is usually what's used in fiction, and can sometimes replace a semi-colon. I'd do more research on this for yourself online.
** Is it a love triangle if two guys like the girl, but the girl only likes one of the guys? (We didn't discuss this during the meeting last night, but I'm dying to know.)
Usually, a love triangle is when two guys like one girl and the girl is trying to decide between the two, or when two girls like one guy and the guy is trying to decide between them, or any combination thereof. I don't think there's really any technical universal description of this, honestly.
** Perky. It's bad, right? I do not want a perky character. I guess I don't even want a happy character. Even if she starts out happy and THEN the conflict comes and she gets crazy. But I need her to start out crazy instead? Yes? Or what? I'm so confused on this one. (Here, I would like to use another !!!! so you can feel my sense of frustration, but I'm scared now.) Yeah, it didn't even cross my mind that she shouldn't be happy as the book opens. So confused. But one of the guys last night called her a sweetheart. I liked that. It made me smile.
Why couldn't your character be happy? I don't understand that at all, and there's nothing wrong with perky if you WANT your character to be perky and that's just how she is. Please don't let other people tell you how your characters should be. I'm guessing this has to do with readers thinking "happy" means "no tension."
** Passive voice. I totally agree. It's bad. My chapter is full of it and that's after I thought I got rid of it. Dang. I'm such a bad bad writer. Bad, so bad.
Passive voice in your prose can be a huge problem, yes, but I wouldn't worry about that until you finish your novel and start on revisions. Then maybe email me about it. :)
** Flashbacks, in the first chapter. Your feelings on this? I had a feeling they would hate this. I was right.
I have a lot of opinions on flashbacks. Essentially, my rule for MYSELF is to stay away from them until the story is established -- about chapter three. But that's me. That's completely something you have to figure out on your own.
** If my first scene takes place at church, would you assume that it's going to be a Christian novel? Yeah, me neither.
Possibly, yes. I would assume it's going to have religion in it, yes, but it all depends on the tone of your story and voice and what is going on in that scene.
Anyway, hope all this is helpful. I'm always happy to talk to you more through email. I'm pretty sure you know where to find me. :)
Michelle: Wow! Thanks so much for all the helpful advice here. You make me smile. If I keep at this, you'll definitely be one of my go to people! :)
DeleteI completely agree that telling in a book is bad. It has to be showing. That is good writing. There definitely needs to be some kind of conflict to solve, otherwise what is the book about, right? Hmm about the questions aspect. I think I've seen first person narratives where the narrator was thinking to her/himself. I haven't noticed if the question mark wasn't there though. I think it would make sense to have them ask themselves questions. I know I do it. Passive voice has a place though. Sometimes it works, and other times it doesn't. It just has to be written right in the situation.
ReplyDeleteJulie: Thanks! I've learned so much with this little experiment! :)
DeleteWHAT???? Let's just pause here for a minute. . . ..... ------- I am TELLING you right now, I liked your first chapter!!!!!!!!!!!! Though, I may have some bias. I thought your character was relatable (get it?).
ReplyDeleteAnd I don't think you would be able to tell the color of someone's eyes from the side... unless they were looking AT you out the side of their eye sockets.
And, uh, I think questions ALL THE TIME!!!! "What should I make for dinner?" "Where are my shoes?" "Should I do something productive?" "I wonder why everyone is giving me funny looks?" "Is it bedtime yet?" All. The. Time.
And how dare you let your character have a religion she is raised in!!!!!!!! and few more for good measure!!!!!!!!!!!!! Leave it in! (just my opinion)
Now. . . .......-------- have I created enough writing faux pas to make you feel like a genius in comparison????!!!.....!!!!!
In all seriousness, don't get discouraged. I know its got to be hard having a story you created and is a part of your hard work and heart be critiqued. Like a good mom, you want to defend your "baby". But let it refine YOU as an author, so YOU can create a better story. So it will still be YOUR story! Keep at it. I believe, and have always believed you will be a great author one day!
Megs: LOL! Yay for all the !!!!! :) And here's hoping you are right in your prediction. I think. Glad you enjoyed the first chapter. Maybe I'll send you the second one soon!
Deletewww, good for you! Yes, getting critiqued - especially the first time - requires a lot of courage. It's hard to bare yourself and throw your baby to the wolves :-)
ReplyDeleteThere are few hard and fast rules in writing - everything is a tool and the key is knowing how to use the tool. This is true for passive writing, passive voice, and showing versus telling. All are necessary at times and knowing when to use them is the trick.
All punctuation marks are used once in a row. You never write "First,,,,she went to the store" or "She stood up.." Exclamation points are the same as all other punctuation marks. You only use them once in a row, so never ever "!!" or "!!!" etc. Also, exclamation points are like STANDING UP AND YELLING AND WAVING YOUR ARMS AROUND AND WHEN YOUR CHARACTERS DO A LOT OF THIS THEY GET REALLY REALLY ANNOYING. :-) So that is why exclamation marks are used sparingly.
An ellipse (...) is used to indicate a pause or to indicate a character trailing off at the end of dialog (e.g. "'Hmmm, I wonder..." she said, fidgeting with the dial."). An em dash (I can't do one here but basically two dashes together like this --) is used similarly to a comma to offset a clause, especially when use of commas would be confusing, tangential or unrelated comments within a sentence, and to indicate when one character interrupts another in dialog (e.g. "'I'm going to go to the--' 'Hey!" John shouted as he entered the room, cutting her off. "The cab is here.").
A story should always have forward momentum. A flashback is backward momentum/is looking backwards. So to put a flashback at the beginning of the story is generally to halt the forward momentum, just when it gets started. But as above, it's a tool and depends on how it's used.
The same goes for conflict - yes, the whole point of a story is conflict, so the story must have conflict. But there are many different types of conflict - there is internal and there is external conflict. Internal is about a character's growth or competing desires (be a dutiful daughter versus marry the man she loves against her parent's wishes); you find this type of conflict generally in women's fiction, literary fiction, and romance. External conflict is against an outside force, person, or factor (overthrown a tyrannical government, go on a quest to throw a ring into Mount Doom, get revenge on the man who killed your father) and is mostly found in thrillers, urban fantasy, epic fantasy, etc. So it depends on the type of story you are writing which type of conflict you'll use and the level. A cozy mystery doesn't have the same tension, conflict, or pacing as a thriller, right?
You ask a lot of good questions! Keep learning, keep growing, and definitely keep writing! :-)
Good luck!
--Terri
LOL - whoops, typo - that's supposed to be "Awwww" at the beginning :-)
ReplyDelete